Dale Coulam stated we had this presented in two formats. One was blanks and separated in sub-paragraphs and as an alternative it may be easier to state it in one paragraph. The Planning Commission may want to change that, but it is what we understood where we left off on the discussion. Chairman Bryan Pack stated we were starting at 15% with no density bonus improvements provided for a high-density residential and that is for twin-home, townhouse and multi-family zoning districts. Then they can move up to 25% density bonus if they install some of the improvements listed. So 25% is the maximum even if they did all the design incentives. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated he thought it didn't relate to twinhomes because it was an R-2-10. We really can't give amenities to that. We talked about it not being part of our equation. Chairman Bryan Pack stated that was his recollection as well. Dale Coulam stated we could exclude twinhomes, that is an easy change to this draft. We moved what amenities were in the various categories so the Planning Commission may want to adjust those and the percentages for each type of bonus. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated that the other page that was attached to this agenda was a lot coverage for both no restriction and a one-story element. I really liked that system. This one shows only a no-restriction system. He sat down with the project manager and designer of Kanta Village and if we go with the 15% system, they had a pool and on incentives we have listed a full-size service clubhouse. We need to define what a full-service clubhouse is exactly so they know what they have to do to receive the bonus. Swimming pools could be a 10 x 10 wading pool and call it a pool. Regarding Kanta Village, they have a small pool but it would qualify on this checklist. We had courts on there, but anything that has to do with a court or size in there. As Kanta Village went through it, they had a 6% bonus and they had 14% to start with and it added up to 21% and that is exactly what they are. If we are looking for an example of what this could look like, we can apply this to Kanta Village. Sage Villas is far too dense with no amenities. Kanta Village has open space, playgrounds, walking paths, pools, and checks off several boxes to get bonuses and ends up at the same 21%. It is a good object lesson. He thinks the full-service clubhouse should have more of a bonus and pools should have less. If it has a full-service clubhouse with pool, we put that at a 8 or 10% higher percentage if it has these other areas within that one element, such as play area, gazebo, sand box etc. Chairman Bryan Pack inquired did you conclude this was a system that works? Commissioner Jeff Loris stated yes. As he went through the project with the project manager, they were happy with what was given and what could potentially be put in with these tenants as a benefit for them to stay there so they don't go out into the City to find recreation. It was very beneficial. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we had talked about the clubhouse may not be as beneficial and may not fit as many people and that maybe other outdoor uses might be more beneficial. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that the things in a clubhouse don't attract as many needs for people, so outdoor-related amenities percentages should be higher. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that we need to define what is a right sized pool and pickleball court and basketball court because most will do the minimum. Do we want flexibility? Dale Coulam stated that you could say that a wading pool does not qualify or try to define a minimum size. If it is an amenity for those with an HOA, he doesn't know that we should regulate the exact size or how many courts. We would say that they provide an amenity to get a bonus but there will be varying opinions on what that is. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated maybe we could see how many people are per a pool. He is trying to think how we can make sure they don't just do the minimum. Chairman Bryan Pack stated a percentage that amenities meet as far as size. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated yes. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that we tried to break it down by amenity and how many homes it served. So percentage of use or number of people needs factored in. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated that in Kanta Village, looking at Category C where the amenities include play area, sandbox, picnic tables, pavilions, and walking paths, they had both walking paths and a gazebo and a children's play area. Do they receive a bonus for each of those or are they dinged for putting too much in? Is there a benefit for increasing their amenities? If they don't have basketball or pickleball, would a gazebo accomplish it, or because it is in another category, would they have to take out the gazebo and put in basketball or pickleball to qualify for that amenity? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that maybe in each category should say "qualify up to" a percentage. That would give some flexibility. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we are trying to create diverse amenities so developers don't just build a bunch of gazebos. Add diversity for the people living there. Chairman Bryan Pack stated that they can get up to 2% for including the amenities in that particular category that are adequate for the size of the development. That is not very defined but it does start to define it a little bit. We could defer to the developers on their suggestions on that. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that there are people that calculate these every day to tell us what adequate means. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated we had a system like that in the past, but it was based on the time of day and how deciding bodies felt, etc. The project manager he spoke with said they really want a system so it is clear. They want a checkbox. He likes this system better. Chairman Bryan Pack stated yes but how could we possibly ever come up with the right size for every different amenity for individual subdivisions? We could start over-regulating in that sense. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated if we get a bunch of checkboxes it becomes administrative. Dale Coulam stated we don't want it to be too discretionary, as our past system was. We need to try to define as much as we can to avoid a developer coming in claiming we are being arbitrary and capricious. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that he has watched a change over the years where we get discretionary but we also get too many checkboxes and then we get buildings we have tried to keep out for 15 years because one guy looks the list over and we don't see all the rules and as we look at things they become obvious for us, so without things just being built, we need to meet in the middle. Dale Coulam explained that in the past developers were more flexible and wiling to negotiate what qualified for a bonus. Now we are seeing big developers who are more litigious and attack ordinances they see weaknesses in. Commissioner Lance Anderson says that Google says to calculate 20 sq ft per person for a pool in 5 ft water. Commissioner Bob Morris stated 15 sq ft per person minimum. We have that number so we can go from there. It is called the bathing load under commercial style pools. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated Home Owners Associations don't exist when the development is being done, they inherit a bad design or development. These ordinances are to protect our community and people from having problems. So maybe we need to make criteria and create a list of the percentages. No one is going to use a pool at the same time. How deep into all of this do we want to go? That is what we need to ask ourselves. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated that perhaps we need to have a percentage of the amount of units in the application as a point of regulation towards the size of the pool, rather than persons, doing a per-unit pool size. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that makes sense. Chairman Bryan Pack stated that 25% sounds reasonable but we need to be able to back it up. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that we are headed towards the same issue that City Council always has with Conditional Use Permit in zoning by setting up permitted amenities and bonuses but making them conditional on certain numbers. He likes using units versus people. This will be a big table if we go this route. Chairman Bryan Pack stated so one option is to set out per the number of units and based on that, identify the size of each amenity in order to qualify for the full bonus and we could do minimums as well. The other option is identify a minimum regardless of units in the development up to a maximum to qualify for the percentages. Any other methods? Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we should list out amenities that are similar, like basketball and pickleball courts. Think of pools, paths, gazebos, bbqs; whatever that community is trying to meet the demands of the people that want to live there. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that we did emphasize that we want the stories to stay low, because percentages drive these developments to go vertical. We want to discourage that. Chairman Bryan Pack stated one amenity to qualify is to stay single-story. If they go single-story they get the maximum. He inquired what about percentage based calculations, so if a development is a certain size, in order to qualify for a density bonus they would have to contribute maybe 1% towards a pool or 3% for a sandbox or a walking path. Would that work? We would not be defining the individual amenities themselves but just the areas that those particular amenities in that category. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated he likes the idea. Commissioner Bob Morris stated he thinks it is an excellent idea because percentages are what is going to keep a very large development from putting a very minimum amount of amenities in. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that we could do percentages, but then we get into a glossary of terms that defines a walking path, etc. Whatever we put in there, he thinks that will have to be done regardless. In definitions, we may be able to add some of the qualifying factors for the amount of bonus that they get. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that 81 units in Kanta Village would be maybe an average of 1.50 or 2 persons per unit. That is a 2430 sq ft pool. But a percentage will not swim so based on what he sees less than 10 % of people will use the pool. So that is a 20x20 pool. For Category B a 10x10 should be more like a 10x18 pool. What is the cost for a sandbox? A picnic table? A barbecue? Those three items are probably similar costs. Out of 160 people how many use that sand box and picnic table? That way we have a finding as to how we came to that number. On our similar items, we should put our categories to be similar in cost to help define how to get their percentage. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated cost is not as important as how effective they are for the user. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated the cost will let the developer determine what he wants to put in and the effectiveness to the user is determined by how the developer sells his property. They have to figure that out. If it is for older clientele they obviously won't put in a sandbox. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated he could take a shot at that at Kanta Village and see what the percentages are based on cost. Commissioner Lance Anderson inquired do we want diversity for all these items or do we want to name what a community wants. If they need a pool, do we care if they put in gazebos or walking paths? Dale Coulam stated the problem with a townhome full of swimmers is we don't know that until it is built. We are approving a density bonus before that. The developer targets a certain demographic. We are allowing some tools to target their certain demographic group, whether they are older and want pickleball courts and gazebos or younger and want playgrounds and sandboxes. It allows the developer to choose. There is something in each demographic that they can choose and that may be enough of a definition. We are breaking this into categories and giving examples and choices. Maybe clubhouse or swimming pool could be trade-offs. Those are expensive. Other categories we are saying here are some choices based on their demographics. They could choose to qualify for a density bonus. But we won't know what the community ends up being until the developer sells the homes. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated when it comes to basketball and pickleball courts those are based on square footage, but the rest could be based on what the usage so he volunteered to run through some percentages and find what would be an effective number. Chairman Bryan Pack stated let's start with that and get numbers to look at. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated he wanted to clarify that if there is a certain demographic a developer knows he is going for, then maybe they can get a higher percentage of the amenity that meets that demographic. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated he doesn't think we can design the system for each developer. If they want an amenity and they apply then they have to meet the minimum. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that Commissioner Lance Anderson is saying he doesn't think they should have to have an amazing pool and the gazebo is in the deep end because they had to hit a percentage. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that if they don't care about an item but they want to do a really nice job in another area, they can still get the 25%. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that Commissioner Jeff Loris will come up with those numbers. We should encourage that. Because then they have to sell it. Chairman Bryan Pack inquired what are we doing to change this? Where do we go from here? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that every subdivision and project will be different. We want so many square feet of certain amenities. We want this idea of an amount of square feet in amenities for people to enjoy. Chairman Bryan Pack stated the consensus last time was that a clubhouse was not equal to some of these amenities. Are we backtracking on that? If we use square footage and we don't care what is in the square footage, then we lose the point of categories because one would be for a clubhouse and one would be for everything else. Commissioner Bob Morris stated square footage would be based upon the size of the development they don't get 5% upgrade just because they put a picnic table in. Chairman Bryan Pack stated he agrees about square footage and that makes sense to him, but we would need to get rid of categories. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated maybe we use square footage as a starting base and then use a multiplier. Commissioner Bryan Pack stated that one of you put it on paper. Commissioner Jeff Loris had stated he would take a crack at it. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated yes he could do a square footage of amenities and find out sizes of average courts, gazebos, etc. On entire lot we have an area where we have 10% open space and have 1% amenity space and we look at splitting that up to allow for the maximum. He will run with that and look and what balances which way and we can jump off of that. Chairman Bryan Pack stated he would suggest we look it over before meeting so we don't have the same discussion. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that when we talk about pool it is also the surrounding area and the beach and the chairs and the hot tub, the landscaping, etc. That might be where the barbecue is. That is the useful square footage of that area. Take a stab at it. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we definitely want the single-story as an amenity and in these patio homes or townhome an amenity is like a garage or man cave that is separate from the house so that the living space is cleaner. Like the apartments on 600 with the garages behind them. Not quite like Desert Breeze. Chairman Bryan Pack stated the focus here should be on group, public outdoor type recreation space. That is more like living space. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that should not be included. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated it keeps cars off of the road. This may not be the place for this. Commissioner Jeff Loris stated on Commissioner Lance Anderson's point we are not going to have multi-dollar people that have toys living in these. They are just starting their lives in these units. These are more for the beginning of their lives or lower end. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated drive over to Santa Clara and you will change your mind. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that one of the most important amenities in the place he has in Provo is there is a parking area for things like boars and trailers. Putting your stuff is there is a big deal. It is not recreational but it cleans up an area that is walled off or fenced off and cleans up the whole subdivision.