Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated she was not a part of the Commission when this was first being developed. Why is the zoning being done piecemeal? Mike Haycock stated that the project has changed a bit since the beginning but this is for the better getting trucks off of Pioneer, as well as supporting the school's golf program that is in alignment with the Conditional Use Permit that has already been approved. Commissioner Pam Gardiol inquired that this is the evolution of the development, then? If we are zoning to align with those, was that the overall zoning strategy when this began? Dale Coulam stated that the initial Resort Commercial on Snow Canyon Parkway has always been zoned. They didn’t have to do a zone change for the first part of their project. Their Conditional Use Permit document stated that they anticipated 18-wheelers to the south but they did not know exactly where that would be located. The Dixie State/Utah Tech golf team is new so they selected this depression area because it fit their needs very well. That is the reason this area has been selected where they want to do this zone change, to service the University as well as deliveries from Pioneer Parkway rather than Snow Canyon Parkway. They were always planning on avoiding any large trucks entering the project off of Snow Canyon Parkway. They knew it would be along Red Mountain Drive that these 18-wheelers would come off of. This is consistent with their original project. What is new is the University embracing this site and using it as their golf practice area. That seems like a good thing for the community. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated she concurs. The developers are doing a wonderful job. Are the rezones in alignment with the intent of the zoning that was given to the development in the first place? Dale Coulam stated yes. There is one parcel they have acquired and are adding to this project that may be incorporated in, and they may ask for its own zoning, just on the other side of the Western Corridor. Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired what are the anticipated structures going in on this property? Is it a warehouse? Mike Haycock stated a place where supplies are dropped off and redistributed for the resort and then also the buildings for the golf program. Patrick Manning stated laundry facilities and cold storage. We have 16 restaurants designed for Black Desert and we don't want all those trucks going in. They all have separate refrigerated systems, so we have delivery there and as needed take them in with smaller vehicles to get to the restaurants. Chairman Dave Robinson inquired what structures will the school have there? Patrick Manning stated they will have their short-game facility for practice and indoor men and women's locker rooms, with a gaming room and living room. It is a recruiting tool for the University.
MOTION: Commissioner Bob Morris moved to approve recommendation regarding a concurrent land use and zoning amendment, located at approximately 1500 East Black Desert Drive at the southwest corner of Black Desert Resort that abuts the SITLA parcel. Land use from Low-Density Residential to RC ( Resort Commercial); and zone amendment from RA-5 (Residential Agricultural, minimum lot size 5 acres) to RC (Resort Commercial) on approximately 8.444 acres. Enlaw, LLC-Owner. Stephenie Nast-Applicant.
SECOND: Commissioner Doug Clifford
VOTE: The motion carried unanimously.
| Chairman Dave Robinson |
AYE |
| Commissioner Pam Gardiol |
AYE |
| Commissioner Doug Clifford |
AYE |
| Commissioner Bob Morris |
AYE |
| Commissioner Derek Larsen |
AYE |
Mike Haycock stated that last meeting the Commission wanted to know what Staff thought of the different options. We had that attached in the packet so we could discuss it and are anxious to hear the Commission's top solutions so we can get a list together to send on to the City Council. Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired if we have any HUD approved or Section 8 housing in the City at all? Dale Coulam stated we had some self-build housing with Color Country and the townhomes by Ryders that had 2 units/bldg listed as affordable housing. That was done by the owner of the property and through their financing. Whenever we talk about High Density housing, the public has been afraid of subsidies that could become some kind of "projects" type development. The public has expressed negativity about going down that road. Commissioner Bob Morris stated last time we tried to solve the problem, when in reality, we are just tasked to come up strategies that would work in helping solve the problem. Mike Haycock stated that the Commission needs to come up with three and provide the road to get there also. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that these are suggestions we are supposed to pass up to the City Council. Mike Haycock stated yes and it will be incorporated into the General Plan by City Council. Before October it needs to be sent in and approved by City Council. Chairman Dave Robinson stated it is not anything we can solve. There is no solution. We are trying to get closer to what is needed. It will always change and be something we deal with. We need to get our minds together to see what we can do to make it better. Mike Haycock stated that we need to find common ground somewhere. Staff has tried to stay away from solutions that take extra manpower or costly general fund budget line items on the City's side. Chairman Dave Robinson stated one of his big solutions is to annex the ground south of us. The road over there drops down in the valley and it is perfect for being able to do higher buildings in that area and not block views. They could have commercial under residential-type of set up. Mike Haycock stated one of the solution choices is to join with other cities or organizations to come up with that type of project. Dale Coulam stated Chuck Gillette started this staff report and assigned scores under that first column going from not feasible to a real possibility. So item A for example he rated a 5 and that has been our current strategy and one of the choices we had picked before. He doesn't know that we can solve the problem but we can pick tools because the State is pushing really hard to meet moderate income housing. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that the high cost of land is the problem. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated perhaps a place to start would be to look at items on this list rated 5 or 4 as these would be the most feasible. She is finding that some of the items that she has to suggest aligns with that. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that it appears to him that the 5's are out because we have already done them. Mike Haycock stated that there is more you can do with ADU's, like change size requirements or allow an attached garage. If you were to pick it as a solution, we just need a plan to get there. Commissioner Bob Morris stated we just need to tweak what's there. Then that is a good one to select. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that Item A was a 5 but we could tweak what is there. Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired if the State wants us to come up with a scorecard, or do they care what our measure is? In his prior life, he put housing in that was Section 8 and it was fought about by the community for quite a while. It was on a major road and the property had not been used for anything else. It was funded by a government loan and Section 8 housing and it turned out to be a very nice complex and provided needed lower-end housing. Do we want to go in that direction, or just check the box? Dale Coulam stated choosing three of these is kind of checking the box. But then you have to come up with your plan or strategy to achieve that. Then every year we have to report to the State the progress we are making. There is a scorecard of some sort because we have to report to the State. Your point is well taken. The reports up until now have been oversimplified with no real teeth in it. He hasn’t yet studied the new report. It just came out. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated it was in the packet but it was bland and didn't say much. Rezoning and accessory dwellings are things we are already doing if we tweak them a little bit. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that Item A is a great concept, but where do you do it? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated yes if you go to the BLM or whoever owns the property and see what it would take to annex the property, the City would end up owning it. It would be a funded project as far as the land is concerned. Chairman Dave Robinson stated he would love to do that annex, but currently speaking, there is nowhere to do that. So Item A looks like low-hanging fruit, but it's actually not because where else do we put it? Mike Haycock stated none of the zone changes he has done since he has been here would meet moderate income housing. You may pick that as a solution, but we would need a partner and funding to make it happen. It is a way to do it, but it would take more than just a rezone. Maybe allow studio units, so you are not just talking about zoning but making it so it can be moderate income housing. Chairman Dave Robinson Can we technically make annexation happen? We need more space to be able to meet their guidelines and to control the land around us so it doesn't create a problem. It is almost necessary to be able to do what we need to do. Mike Haycock stated you would need to get with BLM and other cities, counties and the school district and maybe work on some type of program where they build homes for teachers. That type of program has been very successful with very little involvement other than being part of that team. Those are options on there. We may not be able to do the project you are thinking of but may be able to work with other organizations to make something like that happen. Jurisdictions are finding it hard to move people down here because of costs. Commissioner Derek Larsen stated it would not only be a rezone but redoing some of the building codes. Ultimately we have to have more doorknobs per acre to make it affordable. Land is a huge cost. Is there a section of land south of Ryders where that land drops off that we can allow four stories for instance? We have to be creative and look at situations like that to be able to make it. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated all these things take money. A lot of comments from Staff on items that weren't feasible was because there was no money in the general fund for it or to have incentives for people to come in and do some of these higher density projects. The most important comment was listed at the very end that asks if it is time to look for a grant writer? We need to tap into the money that is floating around within all these agencies within our US government to make it happen. Either through grant writing or interagency groups would need to be involved in this. He can’t believe Washington County doesn’t have the same problem. Although he looked it up and there is 21 blocks of Section 8 housing in Washington County. It is going to take a partnership or money. Even if we annex property, that’s only half the solution. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that he knows we don't have the money or the man power but could we hire a grant writer? Dale Coulam stated he doesn’t know much about it so he would have to look into it. Anyone listening that knows about that, let him know. Maybe Patrick Manning could give us some suggestions. We could look for a grant writer but we would need to do so fast. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated that in todays virtual world, we may be able to find a grant writer that way. Space is irrelevant in today's world. Dale Coulam stated that is true, good point. Derek Larsen inquired if there was an incentive to build a basement to rent those basements out and draw income off of that as a possible solution? Chairman Dave Robinson stated that everything we have talked about is great and we need to work in all of these directions but we have to come up with something here to work towards. Commissioner Derek Larsen stated that the three that are 5's are the probably the most reasonable options. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated the Staff selected those as well. Chairman Dave Robinson stated Item E was a 5 as well and states create or allow for reduced regulations related to internal or detached accessory dwelling units in residential zones. Again, we have already been doing this. Item F is another 5 and it states zone or rezone for higher density or moderate income residential development in Commercial or Mixed Use zones near major transit investment corridors, commercial centers or employment centers and it would fit right into an annexation because it would be right on the Corridor. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated the extension you would like to do by annexing, if we just turn that into housing, we are exactly in the same spot we are now. But if we were to do M which is rated a 4 states demonstrate creation of, or participation in, a community land trust program for moderate income housing. Somehow we have to get the land out of the cost for the renter or owner if they are selling them. Either by land trust or some other funded agency that is actually supplying the land. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that the other 4 was Item B, demonstrate investment in the rehabilitation or expansion of infrastructure that facilitates the construction of moderate income housing. Mike Haycock stated we are looking at our impact fee studies in our General Plan for some of those items, so that could actually be easy if we look at the transportation corridors and assume a higher density along those, we could check that box fairly easily. If we have some direction on where to oversize our infrastructure like our water system in areas to provide for possible High Density uses. Chairman Dave Robinson stated then we are talking about Hwy 91 and Center Street. Mike Haycock stated we also looked during our land use discussion at Red Mountain Blvd, 400 South and 400 West. Chairman Dave Robinson stated it is just hard to read through these and see where they would fit for us because we are so limited on space. Commissioner Pam Gardiol inquired on Item F, maybe we have limited space, but are there other ways to better use the space we have? Chairman Dave Robinson stated that is true yes but if they are basing it on transit investment corridors, it has to be considered high traffic corridors. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated that as the community grows, other opportunities may open up. Dale Coulam stated that between Rocky Vista University and Vista School on Center Street, we have always talked about Commercial or Mixed-Use next to Center Street. We don’t want big box stores so they would be smaller shops. Right now we have a common owner, so if they turn that into a Commercial center with Mixed-Use on top, they could have shops on the bottom, restaurants, they could do some open space. Not to say it would be an outlet mall, but he was recently at Traverse mall at Point of the Mountain by Salt Lake City, and they had walking corridors with shops on both sides. They had live entertainment and a DJ and that is possible in a Mixed-Use environment. You see a lot of that up North, but not in our neck of the woods as much. It is starting to develop more so in St George. When you put apartments above Commercial, it becomes attractive. We don't have affordable rental places. Those are options. If we think we want Commercial and brought in a Mixed-Use project to bring in affordable housing it would be attractive and a lot of people would enjoy living along a major corridor up off the ground with shops below to watch the happenings of the City. It could have underground parking. It could be well done. We should look at some of these areas and think Mixed-Use. Chairman Dave Robinson stated he agrees with what Dale Coulam is saying. There is no nightlife here for college kids but the other half of that is a line of site so we don’t end up with too tall of buildings. Dale Coulam stated sure, you may need some breaks. That would be an interesting question to pose to the private property rights ombudsman. The day may come when someone challenges our heights and he doesn't know that it would be upheld. He would hate to see only parking adjacent to a major corridor. Bringing the buildings closer violates our fifteen degree view angle. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated that as developers come in, if we discuss what our moderate income housing vision is for the community, then we could talk about how what they are developing, especially Commercial, could help to build that in. In 45 years of living in Ogden watching 25th street turn into a vibrant center, one of the things that happened there was that all the historic structures were on the ground level. They revitalized the second stories of those little buildings into vibrant desirable downtown condominiums and they were sold as start-ups. Mike Haycock stated he believes Mixed-Use is a good option that would check off a box for a possibility but you may not have a developer in the next 5-10 years that would have that same vision, but if you made it possible for them to come, then it does provide for that opportunity. If you develop the zone that limits height and density, but gives a bonus towards those to have moderate income housing in it then it gives a developer an incentive. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that he thinks accessory dwelling units have more legs than we have given it. We have a lot of properties in our City that has a lot of extra space. Many of our residents would look happily at generating some additional income. We could try to augment that to make it as friendly as possible to people in order to see more of that develop. It would fill in the dead spaces and provide some affordable housing in a grass roots movement. Chairman Dave Robinson stated those are rental units for the most part in that situation. Is there any a certain amount that has to be purchased homes? Mike Haycock so you could reduce restrictions on ADU's and that would be done by recommending to City Council how to change those standards, like allowing larger than 600 feet so they would be more than just studios. If we are trying to attract a teacher, they may have a couple kids and be looking for something bigger as a rental until they can transition into a house. Chairman Dave Robinson inquired if we are trying to look for affordable housing in houses to buy? Or just to rent? Or is there some combination that we need to come up with for the two? Is there a goal between rental versus ownership? Mike Haycock stated both. Either one has an income you have to be able to meet. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated it would be cool to be able to have a developer come in and do ADUs that are around 80k and be able to start marketing that in some of these big garden backyards that aren't being used for anything and incentivize them in some way to do it. Chairman Dave Robinson stated with our current standards, in his backyard he would not be able to fit a mother-in-law residence in his backyard. That is something we would have to look at changing. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that is one of the regulations we would need to relax. Patrick Manning stated if you deliberately take a look at your land use plan and where some of these types of things would be ideal, and then the City could approve in those areas used for this particular product, and also go to the County and School District and try to get a Community Reinvestment approved so that they are all participating in being able to make this affordable so that they don't have to have the rents because you are not paying as much for the infrastructure. Black Desert needs some, and they have to be part of the solution, although he doesn't know how to build cheap enough housing to make it pencil out to even break even. Dale Coulam stated that by using some tax incremental financing, the School District would participate in the housing for their teachers. Not necessarily buying the property, but agreeing to a lesser portion of the income tax in order to fund the housing units. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that again though, would mean having a person on Staff to be able to coordinate. Mike Haycock stated if the cost is shared between the School District and other cities, the funding would be less because it is a shared program. It would just be getting all the Mayors together for a sit-down and saying we all have the same problem. Even if you haven't come to a solution, you will have checked your box and gone through your plan to make that happen. Even if it wound up not being affordable you would have done something that could turn out to be an awesome project everyone benefits from down the road. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that the State is excited about Accessory Dwelling Units, so let's get really excited about it and make something happen there. So he suggests Item E as one of the three selections. Item A could be the second one. That is no-brainer to show where we are trying to zone. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that we need an actual affordable housing committee to handle this and pursue some of these grants and other great ideas that we have heard tonight. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that the third selection needs to be one of these bigger projects that we have been talking about so we get our foot in the door to working on one of these. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated that she suggests Item F to be the third selection. Commissioner Bob Morris stated he thinks that is great. He didn't understand that we could expand on ADUs so if we can lessen the footage or anything that would be great. That is what they accomplished when he was the Affordable Housing Committee Chair. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that A is more for density and F is actually rezoning some of these areas. Commissioner Bob Morris stated he likes the teacher idea, as well as 55 and older. If we get affordable housing for senior citizens we won't have the raucous parties. Chairman Dave Robinson stated he is okay with this being a lively area because he wants kids to live here. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated maybe we could have a fourth one as an alternative and she would recommend Item T, which is ratify a joint acquisition agreement with another local political subdivision for the purpose of combining resources to acquire property for moderate income housing. Chairman Dave Robinson agreed. Commissioner Derek Larsen inquired where the Affordable Housing Committee has left off? Commissioner Bob Morris stated that he retired after his year and he doesn't know that they have replaced him with anyone. Commissioner Derek Larsen stated that maybe we can suggest to the Mayor that they revitalize that Committee to work on some of these problems. Mike Haycock stated that he will put these items in paragraph form and we can look it over one more time before going to a Public Hearing. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that one member of the Planning Commission is supposed to be on the Affordable Housing Committee. Dale Coulam stated he will send the Mayor an email about revitalizing the Committee.
Mike Haycock stated that last meeting they ended with working on a recommendation to dissolve the Short-Term Overlay and suggest to Council that they have a business license program installed. He had presented an option to use Resort Residential rather than an Overlay. Do we want to eliminate that or proceed with that as part of the recommendation? Councilmember Mike Scott had sent you an email that stated there were things he did not like about the Short-Term Overlay so the discussion was to do away with it. Do we want some sort of Resort-Residential options, away from other neighborhoods, as part of the recommendation? Chairman Dave Robinson stated he is not sure what we would gain from that. Mike Haycock stated that right now you have some commercial options in resort areas. You don't have a place specifically for VRBOs where they are under a contract, the area is controlled by an on-site management or HOA for garbage, parking and the streets. Chairman Dave Robinson inquired if it was an either/or situation? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated what you would like to do is get away from the Overlay and let people apply for their business. But if you have an organization like Black Desert that has a whole section they are going to do that way, they might manage it differently and that is a whole other animal. There is a commercial version and an individual version of it. Dale Coulam stated that on the SITLA parcel, he favors the central on-site management, and that it be considered a horizontal hotel. That is too big of a project. They estimate 30-50% would be Short-Term Rentals. Chairman Dave Robinson has studied this and what he has found is there is less crime in the VRBO individual home settings than there are in general housing. If we had problems with that in the past, were they licensed? Dale Coulam stated but they did it illegally anyway. And we are not allowed to use the internet to see if they are advertising as a Short-Term rental so we have to catch them in the act through other means, which is difficult to do from a code enforcement standpoint. Whether they are violating an ordinance or licensing, either way they are violating an ordinance, doing it intentionally and getting away with it and not paying the taxes. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that he would like to make happen. Dale Coulam stated with SITLA and the Sentierre project, not all of them have to continuously have all of their lock-offs in the rental pool. They can come live there because they own the house and then rent it out on a nightly basis. Chairman Dave Robinson stated so we have the individual, which would need to be licensed with the City, but within a Resort Commercial or a Resort Mixed-Use, it would have to be run through their central booking. Dale Coulam stated correct and for something as big as SITLA he would personally favor on-site centralized booking and management. Maybe adding that into CCRs needs to be part of their project plan. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated she just wants to confirm that Resort Commercial ensures that the City can enforce those ordinances because her experience has been that they are being violated with no way to enforce them. Dale Coulam stated that an HOA has more leeway than a government agency because in an HOA word spreads a lot faster within a HOA if someone is violating the rules, potentially. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated that her own neighborhood has a chronic violation. Commissioner Dave Robinson stated in his previous neighborhood he knew of several but never had issues with it, they didn't bother him, they never had the cops there, he just ignored it and moved on. On the individual side, he would like to see it not outlawed because if we outlaw it, people just continue to do it. If there is a path to do it legally, and allow the City to be able to collect on that, it seems like there is a path to regulate it. Right now, it is happening all over the City. Dale Coulam stated in order to renew their license there has to be some way to prove they paid the transient room tax the previous year. Then he wouldn't have as much objection to it. Right now, they are not paying that transient room tax. Chairman Dave Robinson stated we need to start collecting that as a City, and there needs to be a fine associated with it if they are operating illegally. Dale Coulam stated that right now, individually, it is too small for the Tax Commission to get involved. We turned a property into them that we knew was operating illegally and not paying taxes, and they didn't have the manpower to pursue it. Chairman Dave Robinson inquired if the City could though? Dale Coulam stated we might run the budget dry. Code enforcement costs us more to process than the fines we get out of it but we get compliance. Our ability and power to enforce against Short-Term Rentals has really been taken away from us. Chairman Dave Robinson stated that he is suggesting we do both. So we have an individual license and the Overlay is gone. Then we have Resort Commercial that has its centralized on-site management company. Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired when Black Desert Resort does theirs, how will they determine who does and does not want to take advantage of overnight rentals? Patrick Manning stated every unit on the project, whether it is single family or a condo has a card reader that changes with every check-in and check-out and then it doesn't work so they come through the front office so we can control it. Then we know if it is an owner or a paying hospitality guest. Our CCRs are HPMA which is our Hospitality Property Management Agreement, and that states that if they rent without coming through us, that they give up their right to access their unit. It is extremely tough because we want everything to be done the right way. We want it to be about the guest experience, and having someone go rogue puts the whole project at risk. Dale Coulam stated and then Black Desert pays those taxes. VRBO has agreed with the State Tax Commission and are collecting those taxes now, and doing more in the way of centralized management rather than individuals. Not everybody goes through VRBO. There are a lot of individual ones out there. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated we as a City would not have that same leverage as Black Desert. Chairman Dave Robinson stated so he would like to allow them within the City as long as they are licensed with the City and there would be some enforcement with that. He understands that could become problematic, but at least that would give us a path to collecting the taxes and know what is going on with those properties instead of it being collected under the counter. That is his opinion. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that the Short-Term Overlay Ordinance is very specific. There are requirements like having a two car garage and driveways long enough. Those same things need to be enforced in the licensing to show and prove they have those things. There is a lot of teeth in that Ordinance. He doesn't want to get rid of the requirements in that Ordinance. Chairman Dave Robinson stated yes not every house will qualify in Ivins. There are certain homes that just don't have the parking and accessibility to keep cars off the street. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated garbage cans are a big issue as well. You go to a place that does a lot of renting and you see garbage cans everywhere and they get blown over. That should be a requirement as well, how they need to deal with trash. Chairman Dave Robinson stated the owners of an AirBnB or VRBO would want them clean so they will show up or have a clean crew show up to make sure it is perfect for the next guest, or you don't get references and can even get dropped if it is not kept to standards. Commissioner Bob Morris stated this can also be part of affordable housing, if people are using any portion of their home as an AirBnB to supplement their house payment. They have a room that they had built for his parents to grow old in and they have both passed, so now they rent it out as an AirBnB and it has generated $8500 so far this year. That is a $1200 a month boost to the ridiculous price of $3000 a month payments that people are paying now. He doesn't know how people are doing it. We can tell the State that we reduced this Overlay so that people can supplement their house payment by allowing guests to come here. Tuacahn is a big draw, and that is what most of the people that stay in his place come for, is to hit a show and then they are gone. Commissioner Pam Gardiol stated she is at peace with these choices. Mike Haycock stated that next meeting we will do away with the Short-Term Overlay and Resort-Residential and just have Resort Mixed-Use or Resort Commercial for the options.