Chairman Bryan Pack stated that we have seen this before. Chuck Gillette stated he has no new comments to offer. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that Commissioner Jeff Loris was at the last meeting where it was discussed. It was tabled because our chairman was not present. Chairman Bryan Pack stated the last time we talked about it there were still issues being discussed. What are the suggestions from that discussion so we can move this forward? He is comfortable moving it forward as it is drafted but he will entertain suggestions. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated there are a lot of pieces to this because what has been done on this is appropriate for a standard subdivision and it is helpful for that aspect, but he doesn't know that we want to only standardize that. Once we create an ordinance that is the way it is. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that last meeting we talked about never having an answer for every issue that is ever going to come up. We talked about making this a guideline, instead of an ordinance. But, if we do that, enforcement power may be harder. But if someone comes in with something unique and would like to propose customization for that subdivision they would like to have for their area. Is there a way to come in if they are not within the bounds of the ordinance but get approved by a Committee or our City Engineer to give some flexibility? Chairman Bryan Pack stated that we are not proposing changing the whole ordinance, we are just discussing grading and fencing of the walls. Are those items what you are most concerned about? You would like discretion with City Staff? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated yes, homes are going away from the traditional idea that the front of the house always faces the street and swimming pools are in the backyard. In Palisades, almost every lot that faces the street to the north of them has chosen to put their pool or recreational area between the home and the street. It creates a significant wall against the street itself. It's a subdivision that feels like you are going down a tunnel. He doesn't know if that is what we want for Ivins. Chairman Bryan Pack inquired if he has a solution to address that? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that maybe there needs to be a way to visualize and customize, and not necessarily have them make it look so cookie-cutter. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that on the wall item, what is important when dealing with a subdivision is that there is a standard for that subdivision and if they buy in that way and want higher walls, you have to vote and decide for that subdivision if they want 8-foot walls and everyone in that subdivision buys in to that concept. It is after-the-fact that creates problems. We have City minimums for corner visibility and setbacks and those minimum standards need to be met, but if in their HOA documents they say 8-foot walls, so be it if the whole subdivision buys into it. If it meets health, safety and welfare. Chairman Bryan Pack inquired if he suggests eliminating 7 feet? Commissioner Lance Anderson stated leave the maximum at 6 feet in a standard subdivision, and if a subdivision with an HOA votes in higher or lower walls then they can change it. Commissioner Bob Morris stated HOA can't go against our ordinance. This is too complicated. It is all a good guideline but there are too many exceptions. Chairman Bryan Pack stated so we are suggesting to add language that allows an HOA to do that. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we live on ordinances that are currently here. Chairman Bryan Pack stated the only changes are fences, walls and grading. Is the suggestion to exempt HOA's from these requirements? Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that it seems that changing grading just changes the value of the lots and creates value, and then that is no longer affordable. The drainage idea is good. He doesn't like requiring setbacks on neighboring property. He likes the grading concept, but if you want to be further away from normal setbacks, that would require your HOA to vote. Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired if The Cliffs side setbacks are standard? Does the HOA trump the City? The laws of the City are there as a maximum, they can go less than but it can't be exceeded. Chairman Bryan Pack stated the proposal is that we write in a provision that allows an HOA to get around those laws. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated we still need to have a standard. If HOA can have discretion to go around all the ordinances, it would be chaos. It would harm the entire community. In the case of grading and fencing, it is more about topography than choice of style. If you have property that just doesn't lend itself well to these laws, staff should have discretion. Lots will be bigger because of this, but it did lend itself as a better solution by being able to do that. So he doesn't propose to make it a totally flexible guideline but in severe cases where an appeal can be made, we should be able to allow that. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that he wants HOA to be able to create creativity so that a community doesn't say you can only do it this one way. The standard should stay 6 feet on the walls. We should not jump them to 7 feet. Six feet is plenty, to hide people's yards and not drive down a tunnel. Garages are 10 feet apart now, but if you are allowed to put them together, it then makes living spaces further apart. Chairman Bryan Pack inquired what is the suggested language? Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that Figure 11-11 has a good representation and just move that height back to 6 feet. It has been that way for years and seems to work. Make this our standard, but allow for flexibility if someone wants to have more creativity. Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired if it can it be a Conditional Use Permit where this is the standard and if you want to do something different, come in and apply? It gets looked at by our City Engineer. Chairman Bryan Pack stated then we define standards and list a specific set of conditions. If we leave it open, that opens the City up for lawsuits. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated it could be done through a Development Agreement and if they don't affect health, safety and welfare, then what difference does it make? They buy in to that development because that is what they want and can afford. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that maybe it is already an administrative decision. It is already in there where if there are situations that are above and beyond the normal scope then it must be approved by our City Engineer. Chairman Bryan Pack stated talking in generalities isn't moving us forward. Let's get into specifics, or as Commissioner Bob Morris mentioned, maybe we are taking it too far. The question is, are we making changes for grading purposes? If the wall issue hasn't been broken, why are we fixing it? Commissioner Doug Clifford inquired if Chuck Gillette feels like he has these issues called out in here? Grading is the issue. That is a measurement, not an aesthetic issue. Chuck Gillette stated he is comfortable with the grading ordinance. There are areas we can negotiate if the developer feels they can't meet the requirement. The ordinance allows that. Jeff Loris had stated concerns about the north side of the street having steeper driveways. That is an aesthetic. He thinks the wall ordinance the way we tweaked it makes it a little better. It can get unattractive when the walls get close to the sidewalk and this helps that from happening. 6 feet or 7 feet on the wall is neither here nor there. Mike Rodriguez and Chuck Gillette decided to add it in to match the IBC. Keeping it at 6 feet is fine. It is up to you guys. No one will have hard feelings. This is just a proposal for you guys to decide if you think it makes any sense. Commissioner Bob Morris stated that hearing about developers and leverage is fine, but he sympathizes with the poor guy that buys a lot and then finds out 25% of it is not usable because of an ordinance he has never heard of. Times change and if it upsets me enough he should move. We have things in place that have worked up until now and he doesn't think giving out more ordinances is helpful to the individual. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that a lot of hard work and engineering went into it and it will be fine, but he is anticipating that there will be cases that just don't work. He thinks it is a good guideline rather than an ordinance. Mike Rodriguez stated that the 7 foot walls were put in there just because of the building code. 6 foot walls is fine and can be more restrictive than the code. Dale Coulam stated a Development Agreement can't change the law. Setbacks are set by zoning law. There is a process to change zoning ordinances spelled out in statute. The City can't break its own ordinances. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we could allow it, if we created that as an ordinance. Dale Coulam stated it would have to be in the ordinance, and the exception would have to be in the ordinance. That is why Chairman Bryan Pack is asking for language. Staff has done their best at creating a draft. If you have language different than this, that would be helpful to evaluate as opposed to throwing out ideas. That leaves staff not knowing what to do. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we help format language by talking. This grading ordinance is just changing the value of lots. He would like this to be an option. The drainage and the walls are good. He likes the concept of protecting viewsheds, and it has been methodically thought about. When people buy a house, they are paying the dollar based on the viewshed in Ivins. We are telling people to have bigger lots to protect their viewshed but that raises cost of lots and then it isn't affordable. He would like it to be an option instead of a mandate. Keep the wall at 6 feet and he needs to work on language to protect the intent, which is health, safety, welfare and aesthetics. The little walls out front are for aesthetics. We could use this concept but people need to be able to put walls where they want it. In the diagram it is on the property line. Everything in this ordinance is good but he doesn't want this to be the only way it can look. Grading should be an option not mandatory. Chairman Bryan Pack inquired what if we just didn't change the ordinance at all? Nothing stops a developer from coming in and doing a grading plan, so it is still an option for them. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that he likes the rule out on Highway 91 that deals with averages rather than absolutes, not mandated. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that averages don't work because individual homeowners push for the maximum that they can get. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that right now there is an average of 10 ft by the length of the lot. That is the number they have to achieve when they put the wall in. Chuck Gillette stated that only applies to landscape buffers. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that 10 ft out front is to give open space to the people in the street. Chairman Bryan Pack stated we can't push this forward because we don't have a consensus and we don't have specifics to take a look at. We can just say no to the ordinance and let City Council take a fresh look at it. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated that change on subitem 11 is if a developer can provide an acceptable justification that a design is not compatible for a proposed development and a different architectural design is proposed, it can be approved by the City Council. We need to consider the work that staff has done, especially on the grading. Not just for aesthetics but also for safety, like drainage, flood control and slopes. We should move that forward. Those are safety issues. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that what has always been done before was safe, this ordinance has to do strictly with viewshed, not safety. Chuck Gillette stated that the ordinance the way it is now is probably safer from preventing homes from flooding, but we are showing that we are picking and choosing locations that are okay with taking extra risks on flooding. It still provides protection, but it tows the line closer than we have in the past. Chairman Bryan Pack stated he agrees with Commissioner Lance Anderson that it is an aesthetic issue because we had some lots going in uphill, and it then became a political issue. This could maybe not be as safe. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated right now we can't technically do this. If a developer wants to do this, it is a good option to keep heights down and deal with the drainage. It is something we should allow as an option, not as a requirement. He would like to use it as a guideline, but he doesn't want it thrown out. Chuck Gillette stated right now they would not be allowed to go below the curb. Generally, we say their lot has to go above the curb. Chairman Bryan Pack stated so that is our recommendation to bring it in as an option, not a requirement, and keep 6 feet height on the wall. Diagram 11.11 he has no specific concerns there. We can make it clear that those are the minimums that have to be met. Commissioner Bob Morris stated the whole fencing he has no issue with. If grading becomes an option, he is for that, but not to mandate it. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated that regarding the averages, recently a guy was building a bbq and because of the ordinance, he was 2 feet too far out on their front yard to put that bbq. Whether they give 2 feet around a bbq or wherever, as long as they give up the 500 feet total so they are not straight rigid walls. Then we say they can't go closer than 7.5 feet is the minimum of your percentage. Commissioner Bob Morris stated or 25%. Chairman Bryan Pack stated that they are both saying essentially the same thing. Commissioner Doug Clifford stated careful what you propose because if you said average of number of feet front and back will never be that close. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated no, street side only. Commissioner Bob Morris stated we are trying to address not having monolithic straight-line walls, giving them some ability to vary. Street-side averaging within 25% of what the standard is. Dale Coulam stated that we prefer front yard setback and side setback that are streetside. If we start getting into backyard setbacks because it is in the back of the house, that is not what we are trying to do. It needs to face the street. Not the rear yard. Chairman Bryan Pack stated so we are making the grading plan an option to the developer. Putting fencing back to 6 ft maximum, allowing setbacks as proposed in the ordinance with the addition that instead of straight line 10 ft setback, it can vary by a maximum of 25% from the setback, so long as the average of the entire street length meets the setback, and only applies to front yard next to street and side yard next to street. Chuck Gillette stated we can work that into this ordinance. Commissioner Lance Anderson inquired what is the setback on a corner lot? Commissioner Doug Clifford stated Figure 11-14. Chairman Bryan Pack stated it treats it as if it has two front yard setbacks for everything except the rear privacy wall. Commissioner Lance Anderson stated we can average those and then have ability to have creativity.